Hadith Discussion - Part II

Sahih International

In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

al-Quran[1:1]

I have mention before to continue about the discussion of "the discussion of hadith" but I have something better still. I am skipping the part where the Original Poster(OP) brought into the discussion, his friend or acquaintance because I have a more interesting discussion from a batch member of Malay College Kuala Kangsar '04. But before I go into that, I would like to mention that the OP forwarded the previous discussion further to our Batch Facebook(FB) group, where as of now, the post have been seen by 111 people. That reminds me of a surah in Quran;

وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

Sahih International

And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."

[2:111]

Like the Quran said, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful". That is what I asked all of the people who are having discussions with me. I don't mind having the Christian bringing their bible to debate with me, but I do mind the so called Muslim bringing their hadith because they said that their book of reference and guidance is the Quran, and most of these "Hadithian", said that the hadith is use to back up the Quran. I don't know if the word "Hadithian" existed, but that's what I'm going to call them from now on. You can call me "Quranites" if you wish but bear witness, that I'm a muslim.

So the discussion continues in the Batch's FB group. I'm not going to go into much detail because the discussion in the group did not differ much from the original discussion, with the exception that a lot more people joined in, and there's a few that is enlightened enough to stick to the general rule of discussion. It really seems that the discussion about the hadith and Quran somehow like saying I'm going to proceed with an act of terror. In my most humble opinion, most of the people in the discussion seems to be terrorized. I would really feel like wanting to list down the names of those who are terrorized and those who are enlightened enough, but that would led to another argument that I can't bear to part my concentration to. So let us just stick with the hadith/Quran for now. Like I mentioned before, I won't discuss this matter much further, to let you join into a better, more preferable discussion.

Let it be known to all, that a member of the batch has Private Message(PM) me personally to discuss more on this matter, all praises to Allah. He did not joined the discussion before nor does he read the whole discussion, but he felt intrigued and thus contacted me. He started the conversation with, salam, and ask about my well being. So I naturally responded with a salam and stated that I'm in good health. He then asked about my son, so I told him that my son is in good health too. He then inquire whether I'm busy, or not. So I said, "No, is there anything of interest?". He explained that he need me to give some enlightment about the matter discussed in the batch's FB group discussion. The conversation mostly done in the Malay Language.

He asked whether I reject the hadith, and he apologized for speaking in the Malay Language. Maybe that's because he somehow realized that I prefer to discuss in English. But that's true. I do prefer to discuss in that language because a lot of my references are in English, and it's quite a hassle to switch language mode, enough to distract me.

He continued to explain that the Malay language is better for his understanding. I decided that he is honest and is willing to learn together, not to preach. So I asked him a question for clarification purposes. I wanted to know whether he understand English well, so I asked him just that. He informed me that he is quite well versed in English but he prefer Malay or Arabic references. So I told him that I have already mentioned all in the Batch group discussion with appropriate details, and I asked him whether is there more to that he wish to understand.

He replied that he would read all over again(the batch discussion), and then, shall we resume discussion. But he slid a question for me about the benefit of not taking the hadith. I thought that I can give thousands(not literally) of reasons but I reply with my general status;

1. I have one God, Allah.
2. There is no other God, and there is none that is equal.
3. I have an opinion which is that God sent down knowledge in many ways, by many sources. 
4. My ongoing research/studies shows that the Quran is God given manual to study all others.
5. I am still learning and researching.
6. By using the Quran as the baseline/mainframe, I judge other sources.

And among the other sources that I judge, I give more concern on those that claimed is upholding God, true and virtue. Hadith is one of those source. And others include, the Torah, the Bible, Rig Veda etc. I have made a conclusion that the hadith is biased. And told him that I have to stop the discussion because I have other matters to handle at that particular moment. I told him that he could process the information slowly and pose any question, if he had any. He then give me a reference to a verse in the Quran;

بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ ۗ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

Sahih International

With clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

[16:44]

He then asked, "Isn't it clear in the verse that Allah said that the nabi(prophet) is sent to make the Quran clear to us?" I told him that I'll check that out and the discussion end with him saying that he would read the post in the Batch's FB groub with understanding.

The next day, after I have done my homework that he gave me, I greeted him in the same PM. I gave salam. I told him that to answer the question he posed before, he need to first refer to the previous ayah(verse);

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

Sahih International

And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know.

[16:43]

I gave him those verse as it shows the context of who are involve in the verses that he quoted. I told him to point out in the verse about the whereabouts of the word/words that point out the nabi/rasul(messenger). The word that was actually used is "إِلَّا رِجَالً", which is "except men". I also told him to correct me if I'm wrong because I don't converse in Arabic. This is one of the reason why did I not use the Malay tafseer. They actually put the word "nabi" even though it's not there. I told him that the Malay tafseer contains many verses that is commented from the context of Malay traditionalist and not from the actual Quranic contexts. So I proceed on telling him the actual meaning of the verse. I told him about the two key subject in the verse which refer to "people that is enlightened" and "people who remember". Thus, anybody who fits the criteria are those who are refered in the verses. And to proceed with the posed verse(16:44), I give to him the verse in proper context. I explained to him that the verse invites the people who doesn't know to learn from those who does know. The verse also asked for the learned to tend to those unlearned so that the unlearned can make a good judgement of the knowledge(decide for themselves). 

I asked him whether he understands my references and explanations and to correct me if I got any part wrong. For that is what god intended according to the above verses. I continued by explaining to him that everybody have some knowledge that the others don't. God wants us to teach and learn amongst ourselves. But in addition, we have to provide proofs to be considered. I have an understanding based from my learning and experiences that the Quran is a "Living Miracle", literally. If we communicate right with the Quran, it communicates back to us. Even it is the Quran that teaches me to learn and teaches. I asked him whether that was a good thing. If he got any problems or questions or detected any deficiencies from me, I'm willing to consider it, with God permission. Before I end my explanations, I give him verses to consider;

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ كُلُوا مِمَّا فِي الْأَرْضِ حَلَالًا طَيِّبًا وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا خُطُوَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ ۚ إِنَّهُ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ

Sahih International

O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.

إِنَّمَا يَأْمُرُكُم بِالسُّوءِ وَالْفَحْشَاءِ وَأَن تَقُولُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

Sahih International

He only orders you to evil and immorality and to say about Allah what you do not know.

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمُ اتَّبِعُوا مَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ قَالُوا بَلْ نَتَّبِعُ مَا أَلْفَيْنَا عَلَيْهِ آبَاءَنَا ۗ أَوَلَوْ كَانَ آبَاؤُهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ شَيْئًا وَلَا يَهْتَدُونَ

Sahih International

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?

وَمَثَلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا كَمَثَلِ الَّذِي يَنْعِقُ بِمَا لَا يَسْمَعُ إِلَّا دُعَاءً وَنِدَاءً ۚ صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

Sahih International

The example of those who disbelieve is like that of one who shouts at what hears nothing but calls and cries cattle or sheep - deaf, dumb and blind, so they do not understand.

[2:168-171]

I told him that by referring to the first given verse, the verses literally is referring to all mankind and I asked him to give extra attention to the last two verses(170-171). I asked him to relate that two verses with the majority of the Malays in our society. I ended my part of discussion with a salam.

He then replied with his explanation on how the nabi is put into context of the previous verses(16:43-44). From the understanding of the Arabic languages, "قَبْلِكَ" is referring to Muhammad himself. Certain verses are appointed to the nabi. So to look for the actual "nabi" word directly is not applicable. So I asked him to give me more detail on the subject at hand. But he asked me on how do I give understanding of the verses. He asked whether this "you" in the verses refers to us. So I said unto him, that the "you" in the verses refers to the readers of the text, if there are in no circumstances that there are any direct contexts referring to the nabi. I also explained that if there were any contexts that refer to specific people in the Quran, the context is made clear in the Quran itself. So I quoted part of the verse again, "with clear proofs and written ordinances". So I questioned him further, that if any people that talks or claims with blurred evidence, it is obvious that their reference is not the Quran, if he may so agree. He then posed a question on where do I got the idea that the verse is for the reader and not Muhammad. I asked him back, "Who is the "people"?, referencing to the verse below;

شَهْرُ رَمَضَانَ الَّذِي أُنزِلَ فِيهِ الْقُرْآنُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَاتٍ مِّنَ الْهُدَىٰ وَالْفُرْقَانِ ۚ فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ ۖ وَمَن كَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ ۗ يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ وَلِتُكْمِلُوا الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُوا اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ

Sahih International

The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.

[2:185]

He said that it is true that the verse talks about mankind, but the context in in the previous verse discussed is referring to Muhammad. So I posed him another questions;

1. Is it not the the 43rd verse of an-nahl is part of Quran?
2. From which context in the Quran that he derived that the verse is referring to Muhammad?

I emphasized to him that I have already given the context of the verses. He answered me by asking a question, that if I said that the Quran is sent down for us all, is there any verses that is appointed solely for Muhammad? So I answered him by telling him that any verses that explicitly mention him by name or context. And I asked him, whether is it not Muhammad is a human(people)? What ever he got, we should got it too. And I explained to him that in this particular context, is the true knowledge. I told him further that even he can see the clear proof. I repeated what I said before on the Quran being the baseline, mainframe, and guide.  I continue by adding that if the Quran mentioned on something being true, it's true, and if what is mention is being false is false. I asked him whether he has considered the verses(2:170-171) that I referred to him. He claimed that he has and he gave me a "smiley". I told him that if people is referring from other than the Quran, there will be discrepancies. He told me that he never before engaged in situation such as this, so he seek permission for me to grant him some time for him to seek the answer to my questions. For sure that I am "OK" with that. He seems so nice and he asked nicely. He displayed a certain amount of respect for me, so with certainties that I should do the same, or more. All praises to Allah.

Before I ended the discussion, I gave him a verses from the Quran to be considered;

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ ۚ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلَافًا كَثِيرًا

Sahih International

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

[4:82]

He agreed to consider it, and the discussion end with salam(peace).

This is the kind of discussion that I most wish for, and God has granted it to me. I hope all my V04 brothers and the rest of the Islamic community can consider the Quran with care, as that what Allah asks us to do. The discussion will continue, with Allah wills and permission. Salam.

Hadith Discussion - Part I

Sahih International

In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

al-Quran[1:1]

Hi there again everyone! It's been a while since my last post. Now I'm back with a portion of discussion that I copied from Facebook about the Sahih Hadith. The discussion is in mix, non-standard, Malay-English languages. The full discussion is available upon request in the comment section below. Today post is to discuss the said discussion or in another words; 

The Discussion of Hadith Discussion

First and foremost, the Hadith Discussion. I'll summarize it just after the images;

The discussion starts with an apology from the original poster(OP). The OP apologized for deleting the post that is view-able to friends and bring the discussion into Private Messaging(PM). The reason for deleting the original post as he said it is off topic. That is acceptable, but as far as I'm concern, bringing the discussion into a PM rather than a new post is quite questionable.Why need the discussion of world renown books be discuss in private? Are Malaysians or the Malaysian Government takes discussion of scholars as an act of terrorism?

Continuing the discussion is the mentioning of the OP on me not agreeing with "panjang umur"="umur berkat" which can be translated as "long live"="blessed living". The OP explained that it is not literally the same but just for symbolic purpose of prayer. No more argument needed as it is true that whatever the reciter of the prayer intended is more significant than the actual prayer itself.

The next issue discussed is the main issue which is the Quran and the hadith. The OP said that Muslim need to hold on to both. He questioned about if not for hadith, we muslim can't possibly know how to worship god because it is not mentioned in the Quran on how to bow and prostrate and etc. 

He also mentioned that I have mentioned before that we Muslims should follow Allah and the Messengers and the Books. But what I really said was a quotation from the Quran that is;

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best and best in result.
[4:59]

The key word there is obey, not follow. The OP misquoted me but since it's not much of a deal, I just let him. The OP continues still by saying that the hadith is from the sunnah of Rasulullah or the practices of the Messenger. It's from the rasul. He also mentioned that it is the prophet's will that he leaves behind the Quran and the sunnah. And the OP said that to know these said sunnah is through hadith, and to learn the hadith is to learn with care, the knowledge is expansive, and to tafsir(comment) the quran, we need teachers, references from the experts. The OP continues by saying that just by reading the translation is not enough. He also commented that he didn't mean to imply that reading the translation is not good,  but to comment the Quran, we need teachers, our mind is limited. And the OP end his turn by asking me to throw away my ego.

Before I discuss on my replies, I would like to point out several accusation that had been allegedly made to me by the OP. First, he accused me of saying something that I did not said. Whether he purposely did that, or he was programmed to treat people that questioned the hadith as such. Secondly, he accused the hadith is from the sunnah of rasulullah. Is the OP really serious with that statement? The hadith is the words of hearsays to hearsays of what the prophet says. The hadith is not the sunnah. It may contain the sunnah but it also may not contain the sunnah. Where is the sunnah? It'll be explain later on.Another accusation that has been thrown out but subtly by the OP is that I am not learned(stupid). Refer to the part where he said that to comment the Quran, we need teachers and references from the experts. Did I not have any teachers and expert references? I already got an Engineering Degree, I know how to seek references, obviously. The almost last accusation is about the human mind being limited. Where the fact and references in that? I do agree that it is limited(we're not god!), but to what degree? Lastly and more obviously, he implied that I'm egoistic. How be?

The reply from me goes like this;

The Quran already point out on how to bow and prostrate etc. So, there should be none problem there. Allah(GOD) never once in the Quran told us to follow the hadith. Unless otherwise stated in the Quran that I did not know. There is a huge gap of differences of hadith and sunnah. And to comment on the hadith is to comment the context of the condition and intention of the persons involved in the scenario - which is impossible to do. For Allah has already decreed that the quran is complete. Have the OP been keeping an open mind? I did not want to make this an issue more than the OP does, but Allah told us to relay what is "haqq", truth. Any deviation needed to be diminished. Have it ever occurred in the mind of the OP that why Muhammad is the last and final Messenger? The last verse sent down is, "..This day I have perfected for you your religion ...". The religion is already perfect. Did the OP not see the corruption in the hadith? If the OP truly believes in the Quran, read the multi-lingual-translationed Quran. Read it word for word. The OP ought to be suprised by how far have our religion deviated from the original teaching of the Quran. I apologize if I had made the OP feels uneasy, but I will never pull back my words unless someone could give me an unbiased fact and the most unbiased is the Quran.

Then I made an allegation that the hadith is similar to the Bible in a way. People hearing from hearsays that the rasul says.. I asked whether the OP is rational. Even the discussion between two people can spawn many understandings, what about the discussion between two people decades ago? If the OP can't give verses in the Quran, display for me the book of Muhammad. Is there any? For all that you and I know, the book of Muhammad is the Quran, right? Please keep an open mind and try to think about it. Salam(peace).

The discussion continues with a third person that is a friend of the OP which I think, having the same stands and point of view(POV) as the OP. The discussion continues in another post, In syaa Allāh إن شاء الله‎. . Till then, salam.